How many gallons of wine to a grape vine?

I would like to produce 200 gallons of wine each year and do it from my own grape vines. I have the land but was wondering how many grape vines I need to plant.
I live in Lufkin TX in the eastern part of Texas.
I have 5 grape vines of table grapes and they do wonderfully so I know my piece of heaven will grow grapes.
I just dont want to under plant. I figure I will plant a few extra for the lean years but this is just a hobby for now.

The fruitless shoots are not the same as laterals. Laterals come off the same shoot and are the newest growth on the shoot. I've read the exact opposite about carbohydrate production. I thought one of the reasons for hedging was to induce laterals just before veraison. I'm not sure how a successful grower would have the time to pinch off all the laterals. I could see removing the fruitless shoots. I got 70 gallons on 95 vines last year at 16 brix. If I was going to remove anything I'd lessen the fruit. I left the laterals because there was plenty of room in the canopy for them. I also leave the fruitless shoots but I may remove them this year I don't know. Why fix what isn't broke. I grow my vines on VERY sandy soil but I mulch them and they seem healty. Almost ALL SCIENTIFIC evidence about grapevines favors NOT removing leaves unless absolutely necessary. I would leave the laterals if I were you.
Let the vines do what they have naturally done for millions of years.
They just need to be pruned well and adjusted I'm not a big fan of interfering with them once they start growing. There must be a reason for lateral growth and I've read it's to increase leaves to ripen the fruit.

Thanks for the information I will set down and work out how much I think I will really need I was a little aggressive with the amount of wine I need in a year probably 50 gallons will be more in the balll park. that is with putting 1/2 up to age for an extended time.

Fred Williams wrote "Something not mentioned so far, and maybe you already know, but you are located dead center in hottest part of the Perices Disease zone. This fact will dramaticly limit your variatal selection.

Kenny, Fred and others that may be looking for a great wine grape that's not well known. Our wine club, The Greater Kansas City Cellarmasters, puts on an amateur wine contest every November. Last year we had an entry of
Delicatessen wine from a winemaker in the St. Louis area. I had the
PLEASURE of tasting this red wine. It was outstanding...loaded with fruit.
Everyone loved it and I thought it should have won Best Of Show (it won it's category). I mention this since Kenny lives in Texas. Delicatessen is a
Munson Hybrid grape. I'm not sure if Delicatessen is bothered by Perices
Disease but there is a repository of Munson Hybrids at Grayson County
Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas

Thank you very much, Doug. I try to stay out of trouble too.
Fortunately, most of my friends do not drink at all. I have given some away, only to find that they never drank it. I gave some to a friend once, and found it two years later in the bottom of her fridge, untouched. <sigh>

I am in nampa, Idaho, at about 2600' elevation. Its a terrific place to grow grapes in some respects, less so in others. After 3 crops and 6 yrs of growing (took 2 years to get planted) I have not yet sprayed, with anything, and have had no molds, mildews fungus etc, and no insect damage either except maybe some wasps. We have a very dry climate, and the daytime temperature will get above 95 degrees in mid June. Night time temperatures are generally under 70, and by the time the grapes are ripening, in the
50's. Our climate is quite similar to the Prosser Washington area, which is becoming a very popular wine growing area, with something like 300 new vinyards. We use drip irrigation, have a very fertile soil, use own rooted plants, and plant vigor is pretty high.
The 4x5 spacing came about because I wanted to have lots of varieties and also I spent some time in the Napa Valley looking at vineyards and saw some new ones going in at even closer spacing (4x4). It worked out that in my 50' x 150' area I could do 10 rows of 33 plants. So I have 1 of chardonnay, 2 of cab Sauv, 1.5 of cab franc, 1.5 of merlot, 2 of pinot noir, 1 of pinot gris,
1 of gervurtz.

About the only problem has been frost damage, mostly in the fall, but some in the spring as well. The hardest hit has been Cab sauv which mostly got froze to the ground with a 13 degree night November 1, 2002. They are the latest, and they had not gone completely dormant. Only a few of the 66 plants actually died, and i should have about 75% of a crop this year. This year I will install an overhead sprinkling system governed by a thermostat which will turn it on on cold nights during the critical periods when dormancy is not complete and in the spring after bud break.
I saw some of the lyre systems in the Napa valley, and it does seem that the new vinyards are going either close spacing or lyre. (Just my amateur observation).
How do you prune to " one counting bud spurs"? I don't know all the lingo of the trade yet!

I was not aware that it is illegal to give it away. Do you have an ATF ruling on that?

kenny wrote "Thanks for the information I will set down and work out how much I think I will really need I was a little aggressive with the amount of wine I need in a year probably 50 gallons will be more in the balll park.
that is with putting 1/2 up to age for an extended time."

Kenny - The old suggestion of 1 gallon wine per vine is a good ballpark figure. But don't let that stop you from planting several hundred vines if you have the room and the interest. With lots of vines you can limit the clusters of grapes per vine and increase the quality of your harvest. Also, you will have bad weather some years and if you have lots of vines you may still have enough grapes for your wine. And, you may end up selling part of your harvest to offset the cost of chemicals, fertilizer, etc. I would leave 10 feet between rows...makes it much easier to drive the tractor through the vineyard to spray fungicide and insecticide. This farming you know.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas

Last year was a tough year for getting grapes ripe. Along with everyone else I learned alot. Here is what I am doing now after the last 2 years. Like yourself I'm ADDING vines to my rows so instead of
8 ft spacings it's now 4 ft in-row spacing. I'm trying to convert from a Geneva Double curtain to a VSP with only 1 fruiting wire. Here's why. The vines I grow, chambourcin, have an upright growing pattern and DO NOT match very well to a high cordon system especially the GDC with 8 ft between POST spacing. The shoots were so hard to comb down I needed a machette to get through. I've learned that before you pick a trellis system you NEED to understand the growing pattern of the vines your trying to grow. I also am a big believer now that even though the
GDC gives plenty of light and airflow it's a tougher trellis system to manage with an upright growing vine. So I think what you have as far as vine spacing is actually not bad BUT IMHO you need to have only 1 fruiting wire to facilitate airflow and light interception for quality fruit and buds. The closer the spacings the more potential crop you will have because of the extra vines but you can't over crop or vegetate the vines. 4X5 spacing is fine, they use close spacings in europe. The reason for such big between row spacings talked about so often is for the machinery needed to tend to the vines NOT the growing needs of the vines.Actually , the smaller spacings will naturally inhibit the vines because of the competition between them. Like you said , thinning is a way to increase quality BUT if you prune heavily to 2 canes laid in opposite direction with the correct # of buds for the variety, which would be 1/2 the recommended for 8ft in-row spacings since now your using 4ft, you'll have a canopy easily penetrated by air, light and fungicides with the fruit happy as a pig in spit. Just my 2 cents.

My experience with the 2003 harvest has really brought home to me the importance of limiting the production if you want quality wine. My hobby vinyard had about 250 vines producing last year, I use close spacing, 4 x 5, and I fed the birds at least half the grapes. I still made 120 gals of wine!
Compared to the year before when I thinned much more agressively, the wine is tasteless and watery. There are no off flavors, no evident cellar problems, just plain old watery wine. I bought bird netting this year and am really cutting the crop back to maybe half of what we had last year. It was a lesson I'll never forget! You can read it in a book but it doesn't really make an impact like tasting a barrel of cab franc/merlot that tastes like its maybe 1/3 chardonnay with some water added! So my advice is plant some extra, buy bird netting, and severely limit the yields.

Can't argue with what you said. I live 40 miles north of NYC so I know exactly how much rain you recieved last year and now this year. It's interesting that combing them down decreases vigor. I guess it has to do with apical dominance. Do you get alot of suckers near the ground every year??? If you "sucker" them maybe you can let them grow until they get in the way of the downward shoots. Also I assume you have grass in the row middles and iff your vines are THAT vigourous maybe you should try growing grass UNDER the vines also. What do you do for excess water??? My site is VERY sandy and the vigor while still strong is average I would say. BTW, what was the brix on your Chambourcin last year?? I could only get 16 out of mine.

Ya know I never really thought of it that way.
I guess I am a little excessive compulsive in my hobbies.
In one year I would make all the wine I need for the next 5 years of course the next year I still have 200 gallons of wine to deal with.
I will rethink what I really need to plant adjusted to what
I think I will drink in a year.
THen again if the wine is good 200 gallons may not be enough
This wine is all for me and only me maybe a small glass to the family but no more .

I was told that laterals are good to keep if at all possible because of their sugar producing potential. Suckering is just making sure the suckers don't interfere with the other growth. You could pull them off in July or cut them back to one bud and use them every year. . Just make sure the vine can heal itself before winter. As far as the 2003 vintage. I wouldn't say it was a disaster. I left the must on the skins for only 3 days and put it through MLF. I think it has potential believe it or not. Maybe a 10% blend with the 2002 vintage. I think it's going to be a light enjoyable wine. How did the grapes that hung until Nov. get to 20 brix??? I thought once the leaves were gone the grapes don't increase in sugar content?

Actually, a lot of the times it is the state law you have to worry more about. As an example, in New Jersey, you need to buy a yearly permit to homebrew.

The Constitution gives the States the right to regulate alcohol. If a state law says you are only allowed to produce 10 gallons a year and have to wear a clown hat while doing it, unless the Federal government makes an amendment to the Constitution, you have to do it.

The law is pretty wacky. I try to keep a low profile. I mostly brew for three reasons; I like the hobby, I love the types of wines that I make that usually can not be bought anywhere at any price, and it is cheaper to make it yourself. I am on a limited income and laying out ten or twenty bucks a week adds up. I can make a lovely bottle of wine for less than a buck.